and here is the conversation between the three of us. first of all, thank you and congratulations for what you have done here. this is a remarkable collaboration. the art institute of chicago here and the museum of modern art. how did it come about, john? >> well, it started five years ago when i visited chicago and found that stephanie working with her colleagues at chicago were doing work on their great matisse "bathers by a river." and the picture which had been begun in 1907, l/1909 and completed in 1917, the aim was to find out how that picture has developed over the years. and really it was an outcome of that that we moved to examination of other paintings by matisse done in the latter part of that period. and really from that the idea came of doing an exhibition. it wasn't first and foremost an exhibition project, it was kind of an investigation project. >> rose: why do you call it "radical invention"? >> well, i think that "bathers by a river" is a good example of this period. it's a period when matisse really seemed to have very